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EUROPEAN POLITICS AND SOCIETY NETWORK

Please view the programme of the 2008 European Politics and Society Network below. More detailed information about the programme of the 2009 European Politics and Society Network will be added in the coming months.

The European Politics and Society Network is designed to teach key Christian political and social leaders how to be salt and light through effectively communicating Christ’s character in their respective contexts.  Applicants should be those who are working in areas of politics, campaigning or community action. Both seasoned campaigners and aspirant politicians will benefit from the input of leading thinkers and practitioners. This Network will be led by Charlie Hoare, International Secretary of CARE (Christian Action, Research & Education). Also speaking in this Network are Dr Daniel Boucher, Andrew Fellows, Dr Wayne Grudem, Dr Os Guinness, Juraj Kusnierik and Stuart McAllister. Prior preparation will be set for all applicants.

NETWORK SPEAKERS

Charlie Hoare is the leader of the European Politics and Society Network. He received his Bachelor's degree in History at the University of Durham. After a year of working for a British Member of Parliament (and junior member of the Foreign Office ministerial team), he studied law before taking a Masters degree at the London School of Economics in social policy and non-profit management. Since 1998 he has been International Secretary at Christian Action, Research & Education (CARE), the UK's leading Christian policy and social justice non-profit organisation. In addition, he has assisted CARE's International Director in establishing a strategic global network of policy makers, academics, politicians and diplomats at the national and regional levels. In the past two years he has also been Deputy Director of the CARE Institute for Faith & Culture and helps direct the IFC Intern Programme, developing and envisioning some of the brightest young graduates in Britain in policy involvement and cultural transformation. He is married to Eleanor; they have two young sons.
 
Dr Daniel Boucher BSc. (Econ) M.A. Ph.D (Wales) is Christian, Action, Research & Education’s (CARE’s) Director of Parliamentary Affairs. For nearly seven years previous, he was the Evangelical Alliance Churches' National Assembly Liaison Officer, representing churches to the Welsh Assembly from 1998 until 2005. He has also served as Gweini: The Council of the Christian Voluntary Sector in Wales' Policy Director. Prior to moving into the world of Christianity and public policy, Daniel studied full time for a PhD in politics and international relations. While studying full time at Swansea University, Daniel worked for three years as a Teaching Assistant in the Politics Department.
 
Andrew Fellows is the Director of L’Abri Fellowship in the United Kingdom. L’Abri is a community dedicated to both demonstrating and explaining the truthfulness of Christianity. It does so by opening its doors to hundreds of seekers who experience the hospitality of this community. Andrew has travelled extensively throughout Europe lecturing to students, artists and politicians on a wide array of subjects.
 
Dr Wayne Grudem became Research Professor of Bible and Theology at Phoenix Seminary in 2001 after teaching at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School for 20 years. He has served as the president of the Evangelical Theological Society (1999), and as a member of the Translation Oversight Committee for the English Standard Version of the Bible. He has written more than 100 articles for both popular and academic journals, and his books include Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine, The Gift of Prophecy in the New Testament and Today, The First Epistle of Peter and Business for the Glory of God. He has also edited Are Miraculous Gifts for Today? Four Views.
 
Dr Os Guinness was educated in England, receiving his undergraduate degree from the University of London and a DPhil from Oriel College, Oxford. He was a Guest Scholar at the Woodrow Wilson Center for International Studies and a Visiting Fellow at the Brookings Institution. From 1986-1989 he was the Executive Director of the Williamsburg Charter Foundation, one of the drafters of the Williamsburg Charter. He is the founder and was the Senior Fellow of the Trinity Forum. Some of his influential books include The Dust of Death; In Two Minds; The Gravedigger File; The American Hour; Dining with the Devil: The Megachurch Movement Flirts with Modernity; Fit Bodies, Fat Minds: Why Evangelicals Don't Think; The Call; and Time for Truth: Living Free in a World of Lies.
 
Stuart McAllister is an international apologist with RZIM, based in Atlanta, Georgia, and is Associate Fellow of the Oxford Centre for Christian Apologetics. Formerly, he worked with Operation Mobilisation before becoming General Secretary for the European Evangelical Alliance. Mr McAllister developed an evangelistic mobilisation called 'Love Europe' that sent several thousand team members across Europe. He joined the staff of RZIM in 1998, directing their training programme, which has included teaching graduate level courses on apologetics at Alliance Theological Society for the past 6 years.

NETWORK PROGRAMME

Day 1:
 
Mapping the Religious Landscape of Europe
Andrew Fellows
 
In the post war period, the religious landscape of Europe has altered dramatically. 
New demographic trends, a flood of Muslim immigrants and a rapid shift to a secular European establishment have contributed to this change. Whatever the truth is about modern Europe, the reality is complex and not easy to discern. The temptation for many Christians is to default to a rather one-sided conclusion. “Europe is on the brink of becoming ‘Eurabia’”. “The church is on the brink of extinction!” In this workshop we survey the trends of the last fifty years and try and paint a coherent picture of what is really happening. Understanding the religious and political context of our times is essential for our ministries. 
 
Principles to Guide Christian Influence in Government
Dr Wayne Grudem
 
Should Christians seek to influence the policies of governments, or is that a wrongful intrusion of the church into the affairs of the state? Is it right for Christians to derive their political convictions from the Bible when many people in society are not Christians? What does the Bible say about God’s purposes in establishing civil government? How can someone believe Christianity to be the only true religion and still support freedom of religion? How can we decide which moral commands of the Bible, and especially of the Old Testament, are relevant for our view of civil government today? Does the Bible support monarchy, or any other specific form of government? What are some specific applications in areas of the protection of human life, the family, and sexual morality?
 
Day 2:
 
A World Safe for Diversity – living with our deepest differences in an age of exploding pluralism
Dr Os Guinness
 
How we live with our deepest differences is one of the great dilemmas of the global era. It is also an issue in which Christians have a distinguished record as well as an immense stake. Yet many Christians today are seen as part of the problem rather than the answer. This session will be an analysis of the principles and pitfalls of the discussion and a proposal for a constructive vision of a civil and cosmopolitan public square.
 
Tolerance and the Williamsburg Charter: A British Perspective
Dr Dan Boucher
 
Dr Dan Boucher, CARE's Director of Parliamentary Affairs will provide a British perspective on the Williamsburg Charter, reflecting upon the very different experience of the British polity with its established church. Examining the strengths and weaknesses of the two systems, he will seek to elucidate the key principles that should inform the definition of the relationship between church and state with particular regard to contemporary campaigning experience in the United Kingdom and the European Union.
 
Day 3:
 
Free Always, Always Free – the challenges of modern notions of freedom
Dr Os Guinness
 
This is the age of freedom and democratization, yet many of the hopes and claims for both are utopian and based on a shallow understanding of freedom. What actually is freedom, and how can it be promoted properly and sustained carefully? And how does modern freedom differ from biblical freedom? This lecture is an analysis of a crucial but often overlooked area of Christian witness.
 
Day 4:
 
Europessimism and the Role of the Leader to Bring Hope
Stuart McAllister
 
Why are we, as Europeans, so often slow to embrace change and all too quick to criticise or resist new things? The influence of history and personal experience is crucial to who we are, but so also is the influence and impact of the prophets of suspicion (Marx, Freud, Mietzsche, Foucault, etc). The enduring legacy of these thinkers must be understood, resisted and replaced with a true Christian alternative. What is a leader and what do leaders do that is distinct, compelling and vital to life? This session will discuss the role of the Christian leader in spreading hope in a culture of despair.
 
Round Table Discussion
Led by Charlie Hoare

ADDITIONAL NETWORK RELATED SPEAKER BIOS

Dr William Edgar is the leader of the European Artists Network. He studied at Harvard University (Honors BA in Music), Westminster Theological Seminary (MDiv), and the University of Geneva (DTh). He has taught at the Brunswick School in Greenwich, CT, and at the Faculte Libre de Theologie Reforme in Aix-en-Provence, France, where he continues as Professeur Associe. He is currently Professor of Apologetics, Coordinator of the Apologetics Department, and Chairman of the Faculty at Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia, where he has been since 1989. His books include Taking Note of Music (London: SPCK, 1986), Reasons of the Heart (Baker/Hourglass, 1996; P & R, 2003), La carte protestante (Labor et Fides, 1997), The Face of Truth: Lifting the Veil (P & R, 2001), and Truth in All Its Glory: Commending the Reformed Faith (P & R, 2004). He has written numerous articles on such subjects as cultural apologetics, the music of Brahms, the French Huguenots and African-American aesthetics. He plays regularly with a professional jazz band.
 
Dr Michael Egnor is Professor and Vice-Chairman of Neurological Surgery and Professor of Pediatrics at the State University of New York at Stony Brook, and is the Director of Pediatric Neurosurgery at Stony Brook University Medical Center. He is board certified in both pediatric and adult neurosurgery. Dr Egnor is a veteran of the US Army, after which he attended Columbia University and the Columbia College of Physicians and Surgeons. His surgical residency was at Mt Sinai Hospital in New York, and his neurosurgical residency was at Jackson Memorial Hospital-University of Miami. Since 1991, he has been part of the neurosurgical faculty at the State University of New York at Stony Brook. He is actively engaged in neurosurgical practice and in teaching at the medical school, with research interests in the regulation of cerebral blood flow and on the etiology and treatment of hydrocephalus. He has authored or co-authored scores of scientific papers and abstracts, and has lectured on cerebral blood flow and hydrocephalus throughout the United States, Canada, and Europe. He has been active in the intelligent design movement for more than a year.
 
Chris Green is Vice Principal of Oak Hill Theological College in London, where he teaches preaching, mission and church leadership.  He has been ordained in the Church of England for over twenty years, and has worked in various churches around London.  He has written or edited seven books, including commentaries on 2 Timothy, 2 Peter and Jude, and most recently The Word of His Grace: a Guide to Teaching and Preaching from the Book of Acts (Leicester: Inter Varsity Press, 2005). As a member of the steering group for the fourth National Evangelical Anglican Congress in 2003, he edited and contributed to both the preparatory and follow-up essays: Fanning the Flame and Guarding the Gospel (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2003 and 2006).  He is currently working on a book on the biblical doctrine of the Church.  He and his wife Sharon have two boys, Edward and Alexander, and the two boys have a goldfish, Annie.
 
John Lenton is the leader of the European Leaders of Christian Organisations Network. He is Honorary Pro-Rector of Emanuel University of Oradea, Romania, an evangelical Christian university accredited by the Romanian Ministry of Education. John was instrumental in helping to launch, in 1998, the Griffiths School of Business at Emanuel University. Prior to moving to Romania in 1998, John was a Senior Vice President at American Express Europe, where he occupied a number of senior positions over a period of 15 years with the company, taking early retirement at the end of 1996 in order to devote himself full-time to Christian service. John has an MA from Oxford and an MBA from Harvard, and is also an ordained minister in the Church of England, having studied full time at Oak Hill Theological College shortly before moving to Romania.
 
Dr George Rekers is Distinguished Professor of Neuropsychiatry and Behavioural Science Emeritus at the University of South Carolina School of Medicine in Columbia, South Carolina. Professor Rekers was previously a Research Fellow in Psychology and Social Relations and a Visiting Scholar at Harvard University. He received his PhD in psychology from the University of California, Los Angeles, his ThD from the University of South Africa, and his MBA from Southern Wesleyan University. He was awarded the Diplomate in Clinical Psychology from the American Board of Professional Psychology and is an elected Fellow of the American Academy of Clinical Psychology. In addition to his clinical psychology practice and expert courtroom testimony, Dr Rekers has published well over one hundred academic journal articles and book chapters and ten books, including the Handbook of Child and Adolescent Sexual Problems (Simon & Schuster) for which he served as the editor. Dr Rekers has delivered many invited research presentations on child and family variables before committees of the United States Senate and House of Representatives, and has served as an invited expert for White House staff and several presidential cabinet agencies. He has delivered over two hundred invited lectures in universities and academic societies in dozens of countries in Africa, Asia, Latin America, the Middle East, and in Western and Eastern Europe.
 
Dr Thomas Schirrmacher is Professor of Ethics and World Missions, as well as Professor of the Sociology of Religion and of International Development in Germany, Romania, USA, Turkey and India, and is President of Martin Bucer Theological Seminary, which has 11 campuses in Europe (including Turkey). He is Director of the International Institute for Religious Freedom of the World Evangelical Alliance, as well as Manager of the Religious Liberty Commission of the German and the Swiss Evangelical Alliance. He holds four doctoral degrees and has received two honorary doctorates. He has authored and edited 74 books, which have been translated into 14 languages. He is married to Christine, a Professor of Islamic Studies, and they have two children.

NETWORK RELATED WORKSHOPS AND SEMINARS

PRE-FORUM SEMINARS
 
A Biblical Approach to Economics
Dr Wayne Grudem
 
Was God wise to put us on an earth where we need to work in order to survive? And to give us a desire to create new products from the earth’s resources? What were the effects of sin on the earth itself, and on the economic activity of human beings? Is ownership of property God’s original plan, or is it merely a result of sin and selfishness? Is human greed a “necessary evil” to make the economic system work, or is there another way? Is it “exploitation” for an employer to earn profit from the labour of his or her employees, or is it morally right? What does the Bible have to say about free markets? Money? Buying and selling? Economic justice? Wealth and poverty? Governmental regulation of an economy?
 
Globalization and the Gospel
Dr Os Guinness
 
Will the church of Christ win the world but lose its soul? The global era represents the greatest challenges and the greatest opportunities for the church since the apostles, yet the modern world has done more damage to the church than all the persecutors in Christian history. Never has it been more important to understand the world that we are ‘in’ but ‘not of.’ But many Christians have still not understood the impact on faith of early modernity (represented by the Industrial Revolution and centered on ‘production’). Now, many have become breathless cheerleaders for advanced modernity (represented by globalization and centered on ‘communication’). Following the traditional Christian approach of discern/assess/engage, this seminar will analyze the notion of ‘globalization,’ highlight its leading drivers such as the Internet, trace its crucial impact on many levels of human life, and outline the many challenges it raises for followers of Christ. A Christian understanding of globalization is an essential requirement for both faithfulness and fruitfulness in today’s world.
 
Europessimism and the Role of the Leader to Bring Hope
Stuart McAllister
 
Please note: The European Politics and Society Network contains a session of the same name. Though this seminar does present some overlap of content with that session, it provides a much more in depth analysis of the issue at hand. The Network session spans 90 minutes; this Pre-Forum will last for a total of 4 hours.
 
Why are we so often slow to embrace change and all too quick to criticise or resist new things? Pessimism, cynicism and scepticism are the atmosphere of modern Europe. Ours is not an age of "great expectations" in terms of the human condition and its needs. Richard Tarnas writes, "Human activity - artistic, intellectual, moral - was forced to find its ground in a standardless vacuum. Meaning seemed to be no more than an arbitrary construct, truth only a convention, reality undiscoverable. Man, it has been said, was a futile passion".
 
The journey of European thought over the last 200 years has gone from one of unbounded optimism in the power of reason, through romantic expectations of a New World Order, into the abyss of 20th Century totalitarianisms, and currently lives in the fog of post-modern scepticism and cynicism. Today’s Europe has been profoundly shaped by political bloodshed and philosophical relativism. The influence and impact of the prophets of suspicion (Marx, Freud, Nietzsche, Foucault, etc) provide the categories for how Europeans think and live.
 
How are we as Christians to understand this culture? How can we be an embodiment of meaning and communicate a message of hope to those we live around?   The enduring legacy must be understood, resisted and replaced with a true Christian alternative.
 
Leaders are supposed to clarify the needs that surround them and provide a message of hope for how things can change. To do this we can turn to John Stott who encouraged the art of “double listening”. We listen to God’s word to hear His voice and direction. We listen to God’s world to discern the barriers and bridges for the gospel. Specifically how can we address the European sins of pessimism and cynicism that too often impact the church? How can we as Christians realistic and yet hopeful?
 
WORKSHOPS
 
The Story of Camus at Le Chambon
Dr William Edgar
 
Albert Camus (1913-1960) was known as an existentialist with a human face. In 1942, he came to Le Chambon, so-called “Free France,” in the midst of the German occupation to write his most powerful novel, The Plague. The main characters of this novel contribute to raising the perennial question of God and evil. Camus’ answer is among the most widely accepted, even today. The true story going on around him gave quite a different answer. The Huguenot citizens of this village took in some 5,000 refugees, mostly Jews, and at great risk protected them from deportation. The reason? Come and find out!
 
Bioethics in the 21st Century
Dr Michael Egnor
 
In 23 years of experience as a pediatric neurosurgeon and brain researcher, Dr Egnor has faced many pressing bioethical questions: When does human life begin? How can we reconcile the difference between the biological concept of a human being and the ethical concept of a person? What ethical responsibilities do we have to children in the womb? Under what circumstances, if any, is abortion ethical? Are there certain kinds of lives that have greater or less intrinsic value than others? To what extent do people who are ill have a right to autonomy, and what are the responsibilities of health care providers and society to respect or even comply with claims of autonomy in situations that are ethically contentious, such as assisted suicide? Under what circumstances is it ethical to harvest organs or tissues for transplantation? To what extent is it ethical to modify or select the genetic endowment of children? To what extent is it ethical to practice contraception and to conceive children artificially, and what does the widespread use of such techniques mean for our culture? What are the consequences of our modern acceptance of genetic screening and other forms of eugenics?
 
In this workshop we will consider a number of these pressing questions from the traditional Christian perspective that human beings have an inherent dignity because we carry the image of our Creator. A deep understanding that human beings have a dignity and a purpose that transcends biology will allow us to survive the biological revolution of the 21st Century with our humanity intact
 
Assessing Leadership Literature from a Biblical Point of View
Chris Green
 
Christians have often adopted the ideas and models from best selling non-Christian thinkers and writers. This is certainly true in the area of leadership, as believers have often naively affirmed secular leadership models. In this seminar, we will look at some of those popular leadership ideas, but we will also try to come up with a distinctive, biblical model. Along the way we will discover the worst ever Christian writer on leadership!
 
The Bible and Business: The Moral Goodness of Property, Productivity, Profits, and Paying employees – and the Dangers
Dr Wayne Grudem
 
Must successful business be driven by greed, or can a consistently Christian approach to business be profitable? Is it immoral (or unspiritual?) to earn a profit for producing worthwhile goods and services? Is it “exploiting labour” to earn a profit from the labour of one’s employees? Should an economy allow financial reward to entrepreneurial risk taking? What is the definition of a morally good business transaction?
 
The Bible and the Environment: “Wise Use” is Neither Abuse Nor Non-Use
Dr Wayne Grudem
 
Is God’s command to “subdue” the earth still relevant today? If so, how can we develop resources from the earth without destroying it for future generations? Is “untouched nature” the ideal state, or is even the natural world distorted because of Adam and Eve’s sin and God’s subsequent curse on the ground? Should we seek to undo the results of this curse? Will there be any limit to new inventions? Does the world have enough resources to sustain its present population?
 
Biblical Solutions to the Poverty of Poor Nations
Dr Wayne Grudem
 
Does the Bible have a long-term, lasting solution to the problem of nations that remain trapped in poverty? From a survey of economic history, what are the common facts that have characterised nations that remained poor? What common factors have characterised nations that have steadily moved from poverty to sustained economic growth and even wealth? How do these factors in each case compare to the Bible’s teachings? (This workshop will focus on characteristics of nations as a whole, in distinction from individuals.)
 
Tempo Furioso – living wisely when life is fired point blank
Dr Os Guinness
 
How are we to live life wisely when life flies past so quickly?  How has time been understood in history, and how has this shaped how we think and live? Why are speed, immediacy and relevance so important in our modern world?  What are the false strategies and idolatries that impact how we think about time?  This session will discuss how we can practice a wise Christian approach to living life and time.
 
Third Mission to the West – the opportunities and challenges in winning back the modern world
Dr Os Guinness
 
The church is exploding in the ‘Global South,’ but not doing well anywhere in the ‘North’ (or the West). This lecture will be an analysis of the practical challenges we face in winning our part of the world for Christ. 
 
Strategic Planning
John Lenton

Every organisation needs to have a vision: why it exists and what its primary purpose is.  From this, a mission statement can be developed, which can be embraced by the whole organisation.  However, while it is vitally important to know the organisation’s mission, it is equally important to map out how the organisation will aim to achieve its mission and what milestones will mark the organisation’s progress towards it.  This is the role of strategic planning.  Using a simple model to outline the steps involved, this seminar will enable participants to understand the basics of how to develop a strategic plan and will allow time for participants to try out some of the techniques described with reference to their own organisations.

 

Europessimism: Resisting its Pull and its Power

Stuart McAllister

 

Is there a distinct brand of pessimism modelled by Europeans? If so, what is it? Why are we so often slow to embrace change and all too quick to criticize or resist new things? The influence of history and experience is crucial to what we are, but so is the influence and impact of the prophets of suspicion (Marx, Freud, Nietzsche, Foucault, etc). This workshop will explain how this enduring legacy must be understood, resisted and replaced with a true Christian alternative.
 
Leaders, Leadership and Hope
Stuart McAllister
 
Leaders are supposed to clarify the needs that surround them and provide a message of hope for how things can change. What are the barriers and challenges to Biblical leadership in Europe today? Specifically how can we address the European sins of pessimism and cynicism that too often impact the church? How can we as Christians leaders be both realistic and yet hopeful?
 
The Roadblocks, Difficulties, and Strategies of Communicating a Christian Political Perspective
Dr George Rekers
 
Please note: This lecture is be delivered as both a workshop and a Post-Forum. The workshop will last 90 minutes, while the Post-Forum will last 4 hours (and thus cover the topic in more depth).
 
In the contemporary arena of politics, Christians encounter roadblocks to their involvement such as [1] media distortions and stereotyping of Christians (e.g. as anti-intellectual fundamentalists, marginalized extremists, or cult heretics) and [2] rejection of arguments from Scriptures. Self-identified biblical Christians face real difficulties and rejection in their attempts to influence public policy as politicians or as expert witnesses for legislation. Christians are often told to compartmentalize their religious views to their private lives, and to leave public policy matters to the secularists. 
 
Duringhis career as a public university professor, speaker Dr George Rekers developed strategies to have a Christian impact on politics and society through the use of empirical research. As CEO and board member of the Family Research Council, he led groups of Christian academics to identify existing empirical research studies from which arguments could be made for public policy positions in congressional hearings that are consistent with a Christian perspective (without arguing directly from Scripture). As the CEO of the Logos Research Institute, Dr Rekers obtained federal research grants to conduct new research investigations to provide empirical support for controversial clinical interventions that were consistent with a biblical world and life view (again without arguing directly from Scripture). Then these new findings were presented in U.S. Congressional hearings. Because “all truth is God’s truth,” sound empirical research can be used to persuade political and societal leaders of policies that are more pleasing to God, without appealing to Scriptural authority that unbelievers would dismiss outright.
 
The Ethics of Conversion – Why Christian and Muslim Mission Are So Different
Dr Thomas Schirrmacher
 
Why is Christian mission so different from Muslim mission? Because many means to ‘convince’ others are impossible, if you follow Biblical and Christian ethics. Christians should clearly state to churches, other religions and governments, what they consider to be evil means towards conversion (eg violence, threatening, offering money or other advantages, social pressure, political pressure or any kind of lying and cheating to people). This workshop includes information about the process between the Vatican, World Council of Churches and World Evangelical Alliance concerning this topic.
 
POST-FORUM SEMINAR
 
The Roadblocks, Difficulties, and Strategies of Communicating a Christian Political Perspective
Dr George Rekers
 
In the contemporary arena of politics, Christians encounter roadblocks to their involvement such as [1] media distortions and stereotyping of Christians (e.g. as anti-intellectual fundamentalists, marginalized extremists, or cult heretics) and [2] rejection of arguments from Scriptures. Self-identified biblical Christians face real difficulties and rejection in their attempts to influence public policy as politicians or as expert witnesses for legislation. Christians are often told to compartmentalize their religious views to their private lives, and to leave public policy matters to the secularists. 
 
Duringhis career as a public university professor, speaker Dr George Rekers developed strategies to have a Christian impact on politics and society through the use of empirical research. As CEO and board member of the Family Research Council, he led groups of Christian academics to identify existing empirical research studies from which arguments could be made for public policy positions in congressional hearings that are consistent with a Christian perspective (without arguing directly from Scripture). As the CEO of the Logos Research Institute, Dr Rekers obtained federal research grants to conduct new research investigations to provide empirical support for controversial clinical interventions that were consistent with a biblical world and life view (again without arguing directly from Scripture). Then these new findings were presented in U.S. Congressional hearings. Because “all truth is God’s truth,” sound empirical research can be used to persuade political and societal leaders of policies that are more pleasing to God, without appealing to Scriptural authority that unbelievers would dismiss outright.